E&OE
Tom Connell
Joining me live here in the studio is Shadow Employment and Workplace Relations Minister, Michaelia Cash. Thanks very much for your time. So I guess the first question is, do we have a problem? Do we need to get wages going in this country?
Senator Cash
Everybody in Australia wants higher wages. The Opposition wants higher wages. But I can tell you right now, the proposed Bill put in by Tony Burke is not the way to do it. Tony Burke, going forward, the only thing he will be known for is as the Minister for Strikes. Governments don’t create jobs, employers do. When you have employers across Australia standing up and saying that the only thing this bill will do is literally cause strike action across our economy resulting in job losses, you’ve got a massive problem.
Tom Connell
Okay. So beyond just the wages element, though, do we have a problem with workplace agreements not getting done? There are more in negotiation phase than are done. Is that an inherent problem?
Senator Cash
The answer is yes. And that is why the Morrison Government brought forward, around two years ago now, changes to the Parliament to get enterprise agreements moving. And guess what? The Labor Opposition at the time fought against us every single day. The Better Off Overall Test – there were parts Labor didn’t like and they voted against the whole thing, and within reason they are now bringing those changes forward in their own Bill. So if Labor were dinkum about getting wages moving in this country, they would have supported the Opposition’s changes around two years ago.
Tom Connell
Let’s delve into what they’re saying. Because one of your press releases talks about sympathy strikes for small businesses. This legislation is specific, it does not give strike rights for small business employees. Small business has a definition, fewer than 15 employees, yet 15 employees, they won’t have strike rights, and they have a purely opt-in negotiation.
Senator Cash
Okay. The cafe you last visited on a Saturday in Sydney, did it have more than 15 employees? Because I can tell you right now, there are many businesses across Australia that have 15 or more employees. But what is worse is, it’s headcount, not full time equivalent. So, if you’ve got 15 part timers, guess what? An extra one and you are in this.
Tom Connell
I’m just clarifying because on your media release it says small businesses. You can talk about smaller businesses, that’s fine, but the definition of a small business in this country, those employees will not have the right to strike.
Senator Cash
What about when their supply chain goes down? There’ll be an impact on them. The problem is, this opens up Australia to industry-wide strike action at a time of rising interest rates, rising inflation, higher electricity prices. Australians, on any analysis, on the budget that was handed down will be $2000 worse off. Why would you open up the economy to this type of strike action?
Tom Connell
Small businesses, those employees cannot strike. I mean, this should be something you want to tell small businesses, “Don’t worry, this will not allow you to strike and we’d never let something pass that could strike.”
Senator Cash
That is the only part that they are exempted from. What about the flexible work arrangements? What about the ability of a small business to now negotiate? You and I work together, you’re my boss, I come to you. We work out my flexible work arrangements ourselves. That right is now being taken from you as my boss because I can now go to the Commission and the Commission can tell you as my small business boss, how I will be working for you.
Tom Connell
So, there is a conciliation and arbitration. So that change, essentially, previously, if I as the employee, in this case, say “hey, can I get flexible hours?”
Senator Cash
Tom, what I put to you is this. What did COVID-19 highlight for all Australians? Employers and employees, they work together in the best interests of both parties. The fundamental change with this legislation is, the ability for the employer and the employee to come together and negotiate is being stripped away from them. That ability to negotiate at an enterprise level is thrown out the window for a one-size-fits-all approach. Now you tell me, a small business with 16 employees – are their circumstances the same as a business with 200 employees? I’d argue they’re not.
Tom Connell
So that’s where it gets to single interest, and that’s a bit where perhaps clarification is needed.
Senator Cash
Based on the Act, based on the change that they’re making, it is a broadening and a very dangerous broadening, I would argue of single interests, geographic location and regulatory environment. Take my home state of Western Australia. I would argue that a single interest or a common interest, you’re in the mining industry in a geographic location, what about the supply chain impacts? Again, when every employer in Australia stands up and says that this Bill is going to basically bring this country to its knees, it’s what the union movement have wanted, is going to result in strike action across our economy.
Tom Connell
So you mentioned supply chains. That’s actually a specific fact that the Fair Work Commission needs to put in there when it’s considering whether to give any given company or the employees a right to strike. So if they think there’s that’s going to cause a supply issue, or adversely affect the economy as a whole. They say no.
Senator Cash
Why, if you didn’t want to encourage strike action in Australia, would you even bring in this change? The Labor Party prior to the election said they would not go down this path.
Tom Connell
Labor’s thought on this is where’s the bargaining power? How can we get deals? So there is provisions within this recognising supply chains?
Senator Cash
You’re looking at it in a very, very simplistic way. Employers across Australia, the job creators of this country, have stood up unanimously yesterday and said Labor’s industrial relations Bill will bring our country to its knees. Let’s talk about details. The Bill is 250 pages. It is very detailed legislation. It was only tabled in the parliament yesterday. There were 261 pages of an explanatory memorandum. And guess what? It is going to be rammed through this parliament in the final two sitting weeks and cross. How do employers get over this legislation? Why is it that the Labor Party can’t agree for a proper committee process? And to bring the bill back on into the parliament?
Tom Connell
That’s fair enough for you to question and the crossbench to the question that I think there’s a lot of people saying it’s a lot of detail. What about when we talk about the single interest stream, this is the one that could be given more strike rights. The process seems to be first of all conciliation, which I think most people would say, “that’s good, talk to each other.” Then there might be some strike rights and then compulsory arbitration, just that. That final point, compulsory arbitration, is that something that could ultimately play some good because at the moment, there’s so many deals, as I say, there are still more deals sitting there in limbo versus deals that are completed. Why not get the umpirea little bit more power?
Senator Cash
Let’s take a step back and look at the single interest stream at the moment. Very limited definition of common interest, and I need to consent to get into the stream. What is the fundamental change here? They are broadening the common interest. So again, hamburger joints around Australia, you all sell hamburgers, guess what you’re in and consent has gone. I can now be dragged kicking and screaming into bargaining. That is absolutely unacceptable. Conciliation, people who get divorced go to conciliation and it’s over in five minutes. The mere fact that you are brought to the table to conciliate does not mean when you’re dragged kicking and screaming, you will get an outcome. And as for arbitration you have just removed the ability for employers and employees, and in particular those who did not want to be in this process, to sit down and do what they do best, which is work with one another in the best interest possible.
Tom Connell
Compulsory arbitration is the final step. We don’t have much time. Well, I’m sure we’ll talk about this again. What about the Fair Work Commission with greater power to step in if employers are delaying? Because in that situation, employers often delay the employees every day they’re missing out on a pay increase. It sort of costs them is it the delaying tactic and the threat to be able to go back to a default deal or the award? Is that a good thing to remove?
Senator Cash
Again, this is all about changes to the way we negotiate agreements in this country.
Tom Connell
So what do you make of that change?
Senator Cash
We brought forward to the parliament 18 months to two years ago now. Very sensible changes that we’ve been raising are reflected in Labor’s bill. Why did they not accept those changes at the time? They opposed them purely for political purposes? That is the question that needs to be asked. I support changes to the better off overall test. But in relation to the Bill itself, this is a fundamentally flawed Bill. It abolishes the Australian Building and Construction Commission, the tough cop on the beat in the construction sector is gone. The CFMEU are literally back in town when it comes to construction. It’s very detailed, and I was going well at the time a bit and
Tom Connell
I’m sure we’ll talk again, because it’s something close to your heart. We appreciate your time today. Maybe I’ll get your reaction, actually. Elon Musk completing his Twitter deal. What do you think about that?
Michaelia Cash
Oh, look, if only I had that much money, that’s all I can say. Seriously. It’s been interesting to follow and look, good on Elon Musk.
Tom Connell
Okay. Michaelia Cash. Thank you.
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