Senator the Hon Michaelia Cash
Shadow Attorney-General
Shadow Minister for Employment and Workplace Relations
Leader of the Opposition in the Senate
Senator for Western Australia
TRANSCRIPT
6PR – Perth Live with Ollie Peterson
TOPICS: Saturday’s election, pensioners allowed to work extra hours, unrealised capital gains tax, welcome to country, cost of living
29 April 2025
E&OE
Ollie Peterson
Final edition of Pat Cash, ahead of Saturday. Patrick Gorman from the Labor Party joins me in the studios. Good to see you, Patrick.
Patrick Gorman
Great to see you, Ollie. I’m very excited about Saturday. I’m a little bit sad that it means that our election issue of Pat-Cash will come to an end.
Ollie Peterson
Could continue after Saturday, depending on the results.
Patrick Gorman
I don’t take anything for granted. I don’t know who the Perth community is going to choose to be the elected representative. I hope it’s me, but I don’t want to take anything for granted.
Ollie Peterson
And on the phone this afternoon is Liberal Senator Michaelia Cash. Good afternoon.
Senator Cash
Good afternoon, Ollie. Good afternoon, Patrick, and good afternoon to 6PR listeners.
Ollie Peterson
Let’s go straight to Ellenbrook. John’s got the first question of the day. G’day.
John from Ellenbrook
I just want to know what the two parties are going to do when it comes to working and getting the pension at the same time, because nothing’s happening.
Ollie Peterson
Alright, so in New Zealand it’s a free-for-all. Patrick, why don’t we do that here in Australia?
Patrick Gorman
What we want to do is make sure the pension is there for everyone who’s worked hard and that needs it. But we’re really fortunate that some 30 years ago, Labor set up superannuation, meaning that many people now are retiring with good, healthy balances in their superannuation, and they can go and live the sort of retirement that my grandmother, who was a pensioner, could never have dreamed of. And so I’m really proud that we’ve been able to give people that security of both a pension for everyone who needs it, and the power of superannuation, which gives people incredible opportunity to enjoy their retirement, and it comes along with the rest of our social safety net. We’ve been talking a lot about Medicare in this campaign, Ollie, and that’s all about making sure that as you get older and you need to rely more on the doctor, that it’s your Medicare card, not your credit card, that’s helping pay for those doctors’ appointments. Now you’ve heard myself and others talk about what happened last time Mr Dutton was in office, and that’s where they tried to make it more expensive to see a GP. He wanted a $7 tariff every time.
Ollie Peterson
But on pensioners being able to work more, why can’t we just let them? There’s more jobs available than people willing to work, Patrick.
Patrick Gorman
There are programs to allow pensioners to earn a little bit more and to hang on to their pension. We’ve also got programs where pensioners who downsize their homes can hang on to their pension as they go through that downsizing exercise. We’ve got a range of supports in place for pensioners. And also, I’d say to everyone who chooses to work later in life, thank you. I think it’s great to have a diverse workforce of people of all ages, all backgrounds, contributing their knowledge. And what you see when you have particularly pensioners and older Australians who are maybe beyond the retirement age just in choosing to continue to work, is it really invests in the next generation of skills and talent here in WA.
Ollie Peterson
Michaelia Cash, your policy for the Liberal Party is a little more kind if you win the election for pensioners to be able to work a few more hours, but it’s not the free-for-all in New Zealand.
Senator Cash
Absolutely. Let’s be very clear, a vote for your Liberal candidate is a vote to support older Australians who choose to work more, keeping more of what they earn. So in answer to your talkback caller: we are going to double the amount of income age pensioners and veteran service pensioners can earn without reducing your pension payments, because we understand that this change is going to make it more worthwhile for older Australians to pick up an extra shift or work those extra hours. But in particular, it helps small and regional businesses deal with labour shortages. So let me be very, very clear: a vote for your Liberal candidate is a vote to ensure that older Australians are able to keep more of what they earn. And our policy is very, very clear: if you are an older Australian who chooses to work more, we will allow you to do that without reducing your pension payment.
Ollie Peterson
Let’s go to Rockingham. Carol, good afternoon.
Carol from Rockingham
Yes, good afternoon. Why has the Liberal Party not attacked the Labor Party over the proposed unrealised capital gains tax on superannuants?
Senator Cash
I think you’re absolutely right. This is an absolute disgrace. It is a sleeper issue, there is no two ways about it. And I have to say, if Mr Albanese is governing with the Australian Greens post-Monday, that is exactly what is going to happen. So to anybody out there who has an unrealised gain, in other words, the asset you have goes up in value but you have not yet, let’s talk basic English here, cashed that asset in and realised the value, Mr Albanese and Labor, they are going to tax you for that unrealised gain. So let us be very, very clear: a vote for Mr Albanese is a vote for higher taxes post-May 3rd. We will not do that. We are fundamentally opposed to it. And thank you so much for raising that, because I think that this is a sleeper issue in this campaign, higher taxes post the 3rd of May. Mr Albanese, let’s face it, Mr Bandt will be running this country. And yes, if you’re a farmer, if you’re someone out there who has an asset, it increases in value, you haven’t sold the asset, doesn’t matter. Mr Albanese and Labor are going to tax you for that unrealised gain. Shame on them.
Ollie Peterson
Patrick?
Patrick Gorman
Well Ollie, I think your listeners would know there’s been one big thing that’s been hidden in this election campaign, and I’m not talking about the nuclear reactors costings, I’m talking about the actual costings of Mr Dutton’s policies and promises. We actually do not know, as we stand here in East Perth right now, the costings of any of Mr Dutton’s policies. We don’t know the precise costings of any of his announcements or how he plans to pay for it, beyond massive cuts to public services that people rely upon every day. And I think we now know why we aren’t seeing those costings from the Liberal Party, because what Senator Cash just said is completely wrong.
Ollie Peterson
But the Opposition of any flavour always releases their costings at the last moment. I mean, it happens every election, right?
Patrick Gorman
Look, I’m always the one to believe we should raise the standard, not lower it, Ollie. And what we just saw then from Senator Cash was a real lowering of the standard.
Ollie Peterson
So what are you going to do with unrealised capital gains?
Patrick Gorman
This is only for those people, and I want to assure Carol, who’s in Rockingham, I want to assure her, this is only for people who have superannuation balances over $3 million. Superannuation already requires a level of liquidity to pay for the taxes and things that have existed on superannuation for many years, and some of the fearmongering we just saw from Senator Cash is really disappointing, as it suggests that this policy applies in areas where it does not. I think people deserve better than that. And I think particularly when this sort of fearmongering and falsehoods from the Liberal Party come from a party that hasn’t released their own costings, they can’t tell us how much their policies cost, they can’t tell us how they’re going to pay for any of it, they haven’t released a financial statement or a budget of any sort.
Ollie Peterson
He’s said he will do it before the election. Jim, I want to bring you in. What do you want to say about working as a pensioner, mate?
Jim
Both the politicians there from both parties, they only tell you part of the story. I’m 82 next month, I work part time. I’m on the pension, and of course, when I work, I lose part of my pension. I accept that. What am I going to do the way they’ve got it set. But, I pay tax on everything I earn that I’m working. What they don’t tell you is, at the end of the year, they get all your pension, and they get the money you’ve earnt working, put it all together, which puts you over the limit. I’ve now got a $3,000 tax bill. It’s crazy. Yeah, they tax me on my pension, basically. Never heard anyone mention anything about that. Now I’ve just got a $3,000 bill sitting there now to pay tax.
Ollie Peterson
Yeah, to work, Jim, unfortunately, and there’s an opportunity to work a bit more, pay a bit more tax. I think there’s a win-win in that. Senator Cash, do you want to reply to what Jim said? And Patrick?
Senator Cash
Well, in relation to Jim, as I said, a vote for your Liberal candidate is a vote to make it more worthwhile for older Australians like Jim to pick up the extra shift work, the extra hours, and help small and regional businesses deal with the labour shortages. But just on the Labor costings now, Patrick, in 2022, the Australian Labor Party released their costings on the Thursday before the election. So what Patrick is saying to the people of Australia is Labor wants to hold the Coalition to a higher standard than what the Australian Labor Party themselves is prepared to hold themselves to. And unfortunately, Ollie, this is typical of the way Labor conducts themselves, full of double standards. So it’s okay for Mr Albanese in 2022 to release Labor’s costings on the Thursday before election day, as oppositions do, but apparently that’s not okay for the Liberal Party to do. So I’m going to call out that double standard on behalf of the Australian Labor Party, we will release our costings as Labor did prior to the election. But the worrying thing about Labor’s costings is that what you are now seeing is deficits as far as the eye can see. We’re on our way to $1.2 trillion of debt. And what is worse is that S&P has warned Australia’s AAA credit is at risk with larger structural deficits and debt and interest expenses rising. And Ollie, do you know what that means in basic English? It means this: every Australian will pay more when they borrow money, not just the government, but all Australians, in the event we see our credit ratings deteriorate. And quite frankly, that is not the economic management that we need. But unfortunately, it’s what you get when you throw out the budget rule book, as Labor did in their first budget, and you spend. And that’s exactly what Labor has done.
Ollie Peterson
Patrick Gorman, here’s something that your colleague, Madeleine King, the Resources Minister, said a little bit earlier about nuclear and the Margaret River wine region:
Madeleine King (recording)
There’s a reputation around nuclear power plants, as we all know, and we’ve seen the accidents all around the world, and I believe that that will affect the reputation of a very clean, very well-loved wine region in our South West.
Ollie Peterson
Do you agree with her, Patrick?
Patrick Gorman
I do agree that we love the wine region in the South West. We’ve got an excellent wine region. I love visiting there. I love the fact that I can go down to my local bottle-o and get a bottle of excellent Margaret River wine. And there are people who have got a range of different concerns about what this uncosted, lack of detailed nuclear plan means for Western Australia.
Ollie Peterson
Collie to Denmark is a bit of a stretch though, isn’t it?
Patrick Gorman
Well, the biggest concern I have about the nuclear plant in Western Australia is obviously the cost. We know this is going to cost billions and billions of dollars. It’s going to make the cost of everything else go up, as they’re trying to build some of the nuclear power plants in the United Kingdom, costs are somewhere north of $90 billion.
Ollie Peterson
But you’re not repeating it, the Margaret River–Collie link…
Patrick Gorman
I share a range of concerns about the nuclear power plant impact, and I also think that, I’ve been down to Collie on that location issue, Ollie, that you asked about, when I was in Collie, the thing they said to me is they weren’t sure there was enough water to sustain a commercial-rate nuclear reactor. There’s concern about whether it will actually be located there, because the Liberal Party said they’ve done the geotechnical surveys but never released them. So I don’t know why they’re not releasing the geotechnical surveys for Collie. There was a bit of a view that was put to me when I went to Collie, I know Peter Dutton has not been to Collie once this campaign. I don’t even think Senator Cash has been there once this campaign, Ollie. But when I was there, what they said to me was that they think it will probably end up being located somewhere in Bunbury or Busselton, because you want to be closer to a large body of water that you can desalinate and use as a feedstock for the nuclear reactor. So I think there are serious questions about where exactly Mr Dutton would locate his Western Australian nuclear reactors. I think it’s a very reasonable question to ask. I think it’s a very reasonable question to ask how you’re going to pay for them, because ultimately, it’ll be your listeners who pay for this. Not going to be the private sector. The private sector doesn’t want to have anything to do with this $600 billion plan. It’s going to be left to the taxpayers of Western Australia. Western Australia already kicks in billions of dollars of money into the Commonwealth budget, and we’re going to see that all wasted against the wall on a nuclear fantasy because of an ideological position that Mr Dutton has. If we can’t get a single private investor into it, then I think that raises serious questions. And I do love Margaret River wine. It’s very good with a curry, Ollie. It’s good with a curry, a wine, delicious.
Ollie Peterson
Michaelia Cash, do you agree with that comparison from Madeleine King?
Senator Cash
No. Look, Madeleine King’s claims were laughable. They were absurd. It is another scare campaign from a desperate Labor Party that will do anything to distract from their appalling record in government and their lies on delivering a $275 cut to power bills. It is a fact that France currently has 56 operable nuclear reactors. They derive 70% of their electricity from nuclear energy due to a long-standing policy, guess what, based on energy security. But more than that, the French wine industry and nuclear power stations, they live side by side. They have done so for decades, and this has in no way impacted the reputation of French winemakers. So the claims were laughable. They are absurd. But with four days to go until the election, Ollie, I expect more hysterical statements like this coming from Labor, because they know they lied to the Australian people prior to the last election. They said they would deliver them a $275 cut to their power bills. They have failed to do that. It is a fact, as I said, countries like France have been using nuclear power for decades. They have 56 operable reactors. They derive 70% of their electricity from nuclear energy. Why? Because they have a long-standing policy based on energy security. And this has had no impact on the reputation of their wine industry. In fact, there is a nuclear reactor in the Champagne region of France.
Ollie Peterson
Let’s go to Safety Bay. Geoff, good afternoon.
Geoff from Safety Bay
Thanks for the opportunity, Ollie. Look, I’ve got several cardiac health issues. I’m probably going to be lining up for a second valve replacement, and may have to have two valves done, not just one replaced. I had one 15–16 years ago. Now I can’t just go to an urgent care doctor and get the specific advice that I get from my regular GP, because he’s got my track record, my history, on file. But he used to bulk bill me. He doesn’t anymore because he can’t afford to. And I’ve just looked up, so I didn’t misquote anything, but on Australian Doctor News, it refers to the Federal Government offering $3.8 million to a Canberra bulk billing practice just to keep it alive. How can that happen? I’m just astounded that a Canberra practice is being offered that much money to keep it afloat. And I think that the GPs, who’ve been on your show, Ollie, I think they’re saying that what’s offered by the government, if it is re-elected on Saturday, won’t be sufficient for most GPs. And I would imagine that would probably apply to my own GP. I’m not just going to rock up to any old urgent healthcare practice.
Ollie Peterson
So what does Geoff do in this situation, Patrick?
Patrick Gorman
Well, Geoff, thanks for sharing your circumstances, and thank you to your GP for providing you excellent care. Obviously, what we want to do is make sure that there’s those Medicare Urgent Care Clinics, those urgencies that don’t need to put pressure on our hospital system, so that our hospital system has more capacity to help people like you when you go through what is a very serious surgery, when it’s doing those heart valve replacements. I had a friend of mine go through one, they are a serious operation. Now what we are doing to make sure we support your GP and others is to put more incentives for bulk billing on the table, so that what our experts tell us is that they’ll help some 4,200 general practices across Australia go back to bulk billing. It was bulk billing that was there for me when I was a kid with chronic asthma, when I was visiting my GP a lot. It needed to be my GP to get the support that I needed. I understand why you want to go to your GP who understands exactly what you need, has been on that journey with you, and we want to make sure we have support for GPs like yours, who was bulk billing, saw the Medicare freeze that kicked in in 2014 under the Liberal National Party, and then they couldn’t keep it up anymore. So we’re going to put a massive investment back into bulk billing to help incentivise doctors back into the bulk billing system, because it also makes it easier for doctors. That’s the other thing about this plan: it means you’ve got less agony, you’ve got less dealing with banks and everything else if you just bulk bill your patients. It’s better for the patient, easier for the practices. Everyone wins.
Ollie Peterson
Ultimately, isn’t your plan now the same, Senator Cash?
Senator Cash
Let’s be very clear here, you’ve got to love Labor. I give you credit, Patrick. You create the problem across Australia. You basically destroy bulk billing across Australia. It has dropped by 15% nationally. It is around 70% now in Western Australia. And then you give yourselves a pat on the back because you say to the Australian people, “We think you’re mugs, you haven’t worked out that we as the Labor Party have destroyed bulk billing, but now we’re going to have a solution for you.” The facts are this: Medicare bulk billing was higher under the Liberals. I’m actually sickened now, Ollie, every time I see the Prime Minister stand up and pull out his Medicare card, treating the Australian people like mugs. How dare he. Your caller is correct, you don’t just pull out your Medicare card under this government, you also pull out your credit card. And it doesn’t matter what Labor say, Australians know every time they go to the doctor under this government, it is costing them more. And you know why? Because the GP bulk billing rate was 88.3% when we left office. It has dropped, as I said, in Western Australia to 70%. So Patrick, seriously, you tell the Australian people you’ve come up with a solution, but the Australian people are not stupid. They know you created the problem. But Ollie, you are right. We are going to invest. We’re investing more than Labor into our health system. And I think one of the sad things about Labor is when it comes to subsidised mental health visits, they slashed them, 20 down to 10. We have said we will make the investment. We will restore those subsidised mental health visits from 10 back to 20, and we will make it permanent. Labor won’t do that.
Ollie Peterson
One from Kate, who says, Patrick and Michaelia, do you think that Welcome to Country ceremonies are appropriate at ANZAC Day Dawn Services? Patrick, you first?
Patrick Gorman
Yeah, well I was at the dawn service here in Perth at Kings Park and I thought having a veteran who’s a president of the Indigenous Veterans Association of Western Australia give an acknowledgement of country was appropriate. The vast majority of the crowd, apart from one individual who chose to interrupt, enjoyed having that acknowledgement of country. I thought that’s been done well, and I also respect that I’m there at that event as a guest of the RSL of Western Australia. They’ve made that choice to have that acknowledgement, and I appreciate every part of the work that the RSL WA do in putting that service together.
Ollie Peterson
Senator Cash?
Senator Cash
No, that is my answer. ANZAC Day is about our veterans, quite frankly. It’s about the 103,000 Australians who’ve died in service of our country, and that includes, of course, Indigenous Australians who served our country. But ultimately, I think the only people that we should be acknowledging on that day are our veterans. That is what the day is all about, the 103,000 Australians who died in service of our country.
Ollie Peterson
Les, good afternoon.
Les
Good afternoon Ollie. Look I’ve got a question for Patrick on the superannuation tax that they’re going to bring in. The first thing is, I’d like him to explain why it’s not indexed. And the second thing is, because what that means is that the average person with $200k in super for 30 years will reach that $3 million threshold and will start being taxed, I don’t think you’re being honest with people there. The second one is, for many farmers, and for other people that bought assets in their self-managed super fund, they’re going to tax unrealised capital gains for the first time in Australian history. And that means if you’ve got a property, and that property goes from $2 million to $2.5 million, and you haven’t realised the gain, you’ll still be paying the government tax. How is that fair?
Patrick Gorman
Well Les, firstly, I just say I hope you’re right that we do see more and more people with growing superannuation balances from modest amounts that they contribute every single time that they get their pay check. I hope we do see superannuation grow for many, many millions of Australians, it’s been an excellent thing. In the example that you use, that is a $2 to $2.5 million property, that wouldn’t be affected if that’s the full balance of a self-managed superannuation fund. It only kicks in at that quite high amount of $3 million. The details are all there on the Treasury website if you want to go and have a closer look. I hope that will give you some reassurance, and I hope it will give other listeners reassurance. This is a small contribution only on those amounts above $3 million.
Ollie Peterson
As Les said though, you still will accumulate over years. You still want to be aspirational, Patrick, in Australia.
Patrick Gorman
Well there’s nothing more aspirational than what we’re doing, or the Labor Party, when it comes to income tax cuts. We are the only party that is going to this election, I’ll say to every listener, there’s only one party at this election guaranteeing a tax cut. Not just one tax cut, Ollie, two tax cuts for every Australian taxpayer. That’s 1.3 million people in this great state of Western Australia, 14 million people across the nation. Senator Cash has said that they will wind those tax cuts back. One of the first things in their first budget, they said they’ll put out an economic statement if they’re elected later this year to wind back those tax cuts. Now, I mean, I can’t think of a time that you’ve had a Liberal or National Party in Coalition any more opposed to aspiration than that, saying they want higher income tax. It’s extraordinary.
Ollie Peterson
Alright, we’re about to wrap things up. Senator Cash, over to you, and your final words here. Your prediction for Saturday’s election. Can you win?
Senator Cash
Absolutely. It’s all about cost of living relief, who can better manage the economy. Basically, we’re going to give people 25 cents off per litre of petrol. That is a great way to get that instant relief at the bowser flowing immediately under a Dutton government. We’re also going to deliver cost of living relief to more than 10 million Australians, who’ll receive up to $1,200 in tax relief when they lodge their tax return in 2025–26. But just on what your talkback caller said, let’s be very, very clear: if Mr Albanese is in government with the Australian Greens, that $3 million threshold, Adam Bandt already said they’re going to change it overnight to $2 million. What Labor proposes to do is this: they are going to mandate that Australians pay taxes for gains on assets, such as farms and properties, above the threshold in the super fund, even if you have not realised the return from these assets. That is, without a doubt, one of the most disgraceful money grabs I have ever heard of. You are going to pay tax on a gain that you may never get. You vote for your Liberal candidate, and I can guarantee you it will not happen under a Liberal government.
Ollie Peterson
Patrick, why isn’t the $3 million indexed? Can you win on Saturday and get a second term in office? And if you do, are you eyeing off a position in Cabinet, and which portfolio do you want?
Patrick Gorman
It’s very common for Treasury bills not to index the way you suggest. When it comes to the choice this Saturday for the people of Western Australia, the people of Australia, it’s really clear: if you want more, a party that’s going to build Australia’s future, the only choice is Labor. And it’s clear across the board, when it comes to building Medicare, making sure it’s there for the next generation; when it comes to building more homes for Western Australians; when it comes to making sure that first home buyers can afford to buy a home with their own money, not having to raid their superannuation. When it comes to tax cuts, two more tax cuts under Labor; when it comes to making sure that we invest in critical minerals here in WA, securing the next wave of jobs, only Labor has a plan to do that. I’ve got all my eggs in the Labor basket, Ollie, and I’m backing Labor because I think what we just saw from CommSec this week, Western Australia: strongest economy in the country, and that’s happened under Anthony Albanese and Roger Cook. We’ve got a great thing going here. Let’s not break it.
Ollie Peterson
Minister for Social Services?
Patrick Gorman
I’m very honoured to be the Assistant Minister to the Prime Minister, and I hope that Anthony Albanese is Prime Minister come Saturday night.
Ollie Peterson
Patrick Gorman, Michaelia Cash, we certainly appreciate your contributions to Question Time and what we call Pat Cash. Good luck Saturday, and we’ll chat to you soon.
ENDS
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